Re: Rep:Re: Permission to submit HOWTO

["der.hans" <ldp-discuss@LuftHans.com>]

Am 13. Jun, 2000 schwäzte Gary Preckshot so:

> "Rugged Individualists" don't help because they
> can miss the bigger picture for the trees. You can

Wrong. At least not all have that problem. Also, if you don't look at the
trees you might not notice if you're standing in a strand of poison oak,
which would put one of my aunts in the hospital for at least a week...

Also, they still help, even if they don't see the big picture. And if we
*do* see the big picture, but use tools that are more appropriate for
*our* circumstances it doesn't matter.

You've done the WP stuff. Let those who prefer add the emacs and
vi(m) stuff. As a vim user I believe that info should go into an appendix
until there's a full documented SGML-mode like what emacs has (once the
emacs documentation is done).

> characterize my comments as "the showing-off, the
> sideswipes and put-downs" if you please, but it
> completely ignores the fact that this forum
> continually sees posts from people who ask
> questions that need not be asked - if there were a

We're using Linux exactly for those reasons. If we didn't want to ask
questions and know how things worked we'd be using macntoys and enjoying
our soma.

> set of recommended tools that did DocBook and
> guided them to the correct usage of the DTD. I
> view computers as a tool. You and me and everybody
> else are the beneficiaries of people who decided
> that anything a computer can do, they shouldn't.
> Sure, vim does nice syntax highlighting. But emacs
> and WordPerfect do that and so much more. Vim

I'm not a concert pianist, so emacs is a major pain in the butt. I'd
rather type twice as much than have to use a mouse twice as much. It's
quicker to not have to play with GUIs while I'm producing something.

Not only is Word Perfect GUI (or cryptic from the keyboard in ways I find
worse than vi), but the sgml support isn't on Linux and it isn't Open
Source. I do LDP stuff for free on *my* time. Damned if I'm gonna use a
non Open Source tool to do so. If you want to and build good
documentation, cool. Stop pissing and moaning, though, if I don't run out
to Gary's school of typing shit into a computer and do exactly the same
thing. Also stop insulting me for doing things the way that I want. If my
end product sucks, send me bug reports and suggestions on how to improve
it. DON'T go off on me for not using the tools *you* like. Explaining that
they're better is OK, but insulting me because I'm not using them is
rediculous and I'm getting really fscking tired of it. I generally don't
flame people, but I also don't have people continuously insult me.

> didn't get the way it is without someone being
> dissatisfied with vi. Why manually search a tag
> list when your editor can give you the valid tags
> at any point? Why type tags, when your editor can
> do it for you? Why be proud of doing something a

True. My editor is vi. I'm pretty certain I can get vim to do much of what
you're talking about, but it requires I learn vim more than I have. To be
honest I've got much more important things to learn. One of which is how
sgml and xml functions. I actually need to know this, so doing stuff by
hand is a better way for me to go. If the tools were absolutely *perfect*,
I wouldn't need to know that, but they aren't.

> bunch of diodes can do? Thinking is what they
> can't do, but you can.
> 
> Because of a whole lot of folks grimly attached to
> old ways of doing things, progress depends on
> iconoclasts who aren't afraid of saying the
> shibboleth. I'll say it here: refusing to use more
> capable tools is holding you back. You have people

Forget /etc/ exists. Everybody else should as well. Webmin can do all that
for you. LinuxConf can muck it up as much as you want as well. That type
of thinking brings me admins who don't have a fscking clue!!! I need them
to have the knowledge to go in and fix something if the tool or something
else broke.

Not all of us need to know the markup languages, but some of us do or the
tools won't exist that allow the rest of you to glide along so easily
(which admittedly still doesn't appear to be the case here, so we need
more people who know markup ins and outs to build those tools you want).

You've done quite a few things which I think are good. Pointing out and
proving that WP on m$ is viable was a good thing. I don't know if your
improvements to the H-H were good as I've not had time to evaluate them,
but your comments have certainly led to improvements in it as well as some
of the LDPs processes.

Stop calling those of us who use a system *you* don't want to use
heretics. If our end product is still good, who cares? If we have to work
twice as much to produce half of what you produce, what's it matter to
you? You're not paying us. We're all volunteers, so don't be insulting
about how we're doing it.

You have a very hard edge to how you put things. I don't know if you're
aware of that. It appears to me to be the real reason that you've pissed
people off. Not because you're "stirring the pot", BTW. Others could stir
the pot far more than you are without pissing people off. Geeks aren't
known for their "people skills" :), so I pretty well ignore the fact that
some people don't know how to say things nicely. Also, for the most part
I'm pretty tolerant of people who just don't realize they're being
assholes, BUT I don't like being insulted, especially for volunteer work
that I'm doing.

I've publicly mentioned people shouldn't be down on you for using a non
Open Source, non-free editor, even one that I don't like and won't be
using. For the record, when I used to use word processors Word Perfect was
my wp of choice as I felt it was the best product I'd used. Since then
I've become proficient at vi and feel word processors suck and shouldn't
be used. Notice that I'm not constantly crucifying you for using one.

I've tried to politely say that you shouldn't insult people for using an
editor *you* don't approve of, the same as I've mentioned others shouldn't
chastise you for using something *they* don't approve of. You've
consistently come back and insulted us (*me*) again and again. I'm sick of
it!

cioa,

der.hans

PS, please also remember that "rugged individualists" are the ones
credited for making the US great. They're also the ones who tend to be
credited for making large breakthroughs. And most importantly they *are*
the ones who've made Linux what it is today. I'm very grateful to the
"rugged individualists" who came before me and am honored to wear the same
title.

PPS, before sending this out I went through the list mail that I haven't
gotten to to see if you'd apologized after people let you know that you've
insulted us *again*, but, alas, it wasn't there. You've helped a lot in a
short time. More than I have in a longer time period. That isn't a reason
to just put up with your manner, though. Please learn to at least publicly
be more tolerant of other ways of doing things.
-- 
#  der.hans@LuftHans.com   home.pages.de/~lufthans/   www.Opnix.com
#  The only way for a woman to change a man
#  is if he's wearing Depends[TM] - der.hans



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